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Scott Morrison describes 'war against people smuggling'

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Broadcast: 18/07/2013

Reporter: Chris Uhlmann

Shadow Minister for Immigration and Citizenship, Scott Morrison, says the Coalition would be able to stop boats of asylum seekers arriving in Australian waters in what he describes as "a war against people smuggling."

Transcript

CHRIS UHLMANN, PRESENTER: The political arms race over asylum seekers is escalating with the Coalition declaring tonight that Australia must wage a war against people smugglers and should consider withdrawing from the United Nations Convention on Refugees. 

The dramatic new rhetoric comes as Kevin Rudd finalises the Government's asylum seeker strategy, which is expected to be announced in the next few days. 

The Opposition Immigration spokesman Scott Morrison and joined me here in the studio a short while ago.

Scott Morrison, welcome. 

SCOTT MORRISON, OPP. IMMIGRATION SPOKESMAN: Thanks, Chris.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Can you safely turn around boats without Indonesia's cooperation?

SCOTT MORRISON: Yes, we can, and that's exactly what happened last time we were in office and there are a whole range of scenarios that obviously do present and that's why we've been working very hard with those who have lot of experience in this area to ensure that we can have the appropriate tactics to confront these things.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Well, the expert panel on asylum seekers found that only eight attempts were ever made to turn back boats. Four succeeded and four didn't.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, that's what I'm saying: it can be done when it's safe to do so and that's what Admiral Ritchie said as well and he said when it was done, the boats stopped coming because the measure worked and that's why I think Brigadier Hogan and I think General Molan and I think others have been so supportive of the plan. I think what underpins their support is their confidence, as I have confidence in the professionalism of our Navy.

CHRIS UHLMANN: But you agree with what the expert panel found that every time people resisted, the boats couldn't be turned back?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, there were things that they've referred to in their report and they referred to those instances, but every instance is going to be different and I'm very confident about the Navy's capacity to get the procedures in place, as they did last time, for this policy to be effective.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Can you explain how it works because you take them out beyond your 24-mile zone, what, do you just leave them in international waters?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, again, I've said this I don't know on how many occasions, I'm not going to telegraph our moves that we might make at sea and the tactics that compromises the mission. I think that would be irresponsible to do for those who are serving in our Defence Forces and in our Customs service who would be asked to go and perform these duties.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Don't you see that if the vessels aren't escorted, then there'll be a problem with the vessels once they hit Indonesia's waters?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well let me just sort of refer to what happened last time, as Admiral Ritchie did, and that is when they went back into Indonesia waters, they went back to the ports from which they've came because that's the amount of fuel and other things they had to get them to that place. So, that's how the policy operated last time. There'll be many others scenarios that will present on this occasion and if we work through in some detail as to how me might address those and the smugglers will find out about that when they're confronted with that.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And we've seen this week that a boat that was being escorted by not one but two naval vessels capsized and four people drowned, so even under those circumstances, this is really dangerous.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, the sea is a dangerous place, and I wonder about what the Government's position is on this. Is it seriously their contention that they are just going to let the boats keep coming? See it's our policy to stop them. And my challenge to Kevin Rudd is simple: do you believe your policies, which currently don't exist, Prime Minister, will stop the boats? We do.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And is it seriously your contention that you could turn around a boat at sea and just leave it there and hope that it makes its way back to Indonesia safely?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, that is what occurred last time.

CHRIS UHLMANN: So they just sailed back themselves?

SCOTT MORRISON: That's right.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And what if they turn around and come back again?

SCOTT MORRISON: They don't have enough fuel to get back to Australia.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And then they get stuck somewhere between Indonesia and Australia; isn't that what happens?

SCOTT MORRISON: No, they went back to shore. 

CHRIS UHLMANN: And who's responsibility ...

SCOTT MORRISON: They went back to shore, Chris. That's the point of the policy and there are other scenarios that present where the Navy also is able to ensure that people can do the best in their interests in terms of their own safety and the safety of our own people. So, I mean, we can go round this many, many times, Chris, but the bottom line is when you've got Admiral Ritchie, Major-General Molan, Brigadier Hogan - all people who know what they're talking about backing the man, well, I'll leave it to the Australian people to judge and our form is our record. What is Kevin Rudd's form here? Kevin Rudd's form is prior to the 2007 election he said was going to do this. He never believed in it, he never did it. What he believed in was abolishing the measures that worked which has given us the chaos and the cost and the tragedy of the last five to six years.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And even though you say that these people change their business model all the time, they won't just change it again to adjust to what you do and you won't stop the boats?

SCOTT MORRISON: We will stop the boats because we will respond to the situations that we're presented with and that's our resolve. See, this a war against people smuggling and you've got to approach it on that basis. And we will not cease until it's done. Kevin Rudd doesn't believe you can stop the boats. That's why he won't commit to stopping the boats.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Is it a war against people smuggling or a war against asylum seekers?

SCOTT MORRISON: This is a war against people smugglers. That's what I just said.

CHRIS UHLMANN: There are governments in the world that are much tougher than yours is ever likely to be. If I can take you back to 1970s when the Vietnamese were fleeing their country, some of the neighbouring countries there shot at the boats, some of them towed boats out into international waters and left them there and the boats continued to come because people were desperate. Can you win that kind of war? 

SCOTT MORRISON: Well I think the comparison between what was happening in the Indochinese crisis and what is happening here is very, very different. We have peoples going secondary movement through a transit country where they're flying in from other countries. When people are going to be denied the outcome they're seeking, then the reason to take that great risk changes. The whole parameters change. So as long as they think they can get what they're getting on the boat for, then they will get on the boat. Our policies are designed to change that equation, as they did last time, whether it's turning back, whether it's temporary visas, whether it's regional offshore processing, whether it is the situation that you don't have documents, you don't get a go.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Isn't this debate now utterly hysterical? Is it right to start describing this as a war with people smugglers?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, I'm not sure how you would propose to fix this, Chris, but how we propose to fix it is on every case, in every occasion, at every opportunity, we will put in place a deterrent and we will do that all the way back from our border, all the way up through the region, all the way up through to the source countries as well. That has always been our position, always our position and that is the resolve it takes to beat this. This government hasn't been trying to fix this problem, they've been trying to fix the politics. Now we have Kevin Rudd on the eve of an election talking about issues he's never talked about in his life.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And on the border with Syria where there's a real war, 2,000 people a day are coming across the border. There are much bigger problems in the world than the one that you might face.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, with 1,000 people and more dead, Chris, then I think it's a very serious issue and I think most Australians do as well.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Hasn't the behaviour of the Government and the Coalition helped to really dent the relationship with Indonesia?

SCOTT MORRISON: No, I don't accept that either. I mean, I think we will have a very good relationship with Indonesia. They may not agree with everything that we may suggest. I don't think the Australian Government even currently agrees what the Indonesia Government is doing, and let me give you a case in point: Iranians are given visa on arrival in Indonesia. They are the dominant group coming on boats at the moment. The fact that they can get visa on arrival in Indonesia is an issue, but that's a sovereign decision of the Indonesian Government, just as we have sovereign decisions on ours and we are not going to hand over a right of veto to Indonesia any more than they would to us.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And one of the sovereign decisions that we made was the sign the Refugee Convention. Was that a mistake in hindsight?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well there was 1.5 million refugees back then and that was a very different world to what we're looking at today. I've made criticisms of this convention and more importantly its interpretation for some years. Kevin Rudd has discovered this in the last couple of days. But we've heard it all before from Kevin. Kevin Rudd is looking for a distraction, trying to take every domestic issue into an international issue so he doesn't have to do anything, so he can just get on a plane and go to another meeting.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Finally, briefly though, would you withdraw from that convention? 

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, I think we've got to keep all of our options open, but understand this: if you were to withdraw from the convention ...

CHRIS UHLMANN: So it's an option to withdraw ... ?

SCOTT MORRISON: Let me just explain this: if you were to withdraw from the convention, it wouldn't take effect for a year. That's the process. What we think we have to do immediately is things that have an impact right now and that is turning boats back where it's safe to do so, it is temporary protection visas, it is expanded regional offshore processing and it is dealing with the issue of no documentation. We can do all of those things without a further word, without a further bill, without a further delay.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Scott Morrison, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you. 

SCOTT MORRISON: Thanks a lot, Chris.


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